Self-Organizing Men

How Does Your Masculinity Work?

1. Nick Clarkson 04.17.07 / 7pm

   I thought that seeing the ad (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUI_c286jSQ) would help me understand but I’m still a little confused about what is supposed to be going on. The part that I thought was most confusing was the whole “Your wife is escorted off the plane,” trying to figure out why your wife would be escorted off the plane and what sorts of misogynies would be wrapped up in celebrating your wife being escorted off the plane.

   I see the whole “playing while mommy/the wife is away” that you were talking about, and the connections to “male stupidity.” I guess my question is what do you see at stake in the depiction of men as stupid? I don’t think I’m especially familiar with the arguments connecting feminism and male stupidity that you’re referring to. Patrick Califia refers to something similar (his deep well of shame about maleness as a result of these ideas of male stupidity) in his piece “Manliness” in the Trans Studies Reader. I’m confused about why jokes about men being stupid matters when those jokes occur within a culture that also–and maybe more prevalently–celebrates the intellectual contributions of men (more so than those of women).

   I’d be curious to hear more of your thoughts about effects of these representations and discussions of male stupidity, particularly in relation to broader misogynistic, masculinity-glorifying representations and discussions that also exist. I’m asking you about this because I’m really coming to respect the comments you made at FORGE, the work you’re doing through Homo Factus press (option for the poor and accessibility for disabled folks) and through “a bespoke body.” I’d like to hear more about how you’re negotiating this bit of your masculinity since I’m still (and always will be, I guess) trying to figure out how to negotiate my feminism and masculinity.
2. Max Wolf Valerio 04.17.07 / 9pm

   Jay, I actually took that to mean that the man in question was being gallant by, of course, giving his wife the window seat. A lot of men will give their wives the window seat or the better seat as a matter of principle, and it’s not because they think of their wives or girlfriends as “mommy” but because they want to treat them as if they were precious and very special — and worth, well, a little sacrifice.

   Of course, it can sometimes go the other way, but there is something, in my mind, peculiar to the masculine gender about “giving up” one’s comfort for the lady in question. Much like the story of men putting their coats over puddles for women to step over. Few are that gallant now, or make such an ostentatious show of gallantry, but some men, including myself, will still give up the window seat if she asks.

   Oh well, just my 2 cents.
3. Max Wolf Valerio 04.18.07 / 3pm

   Oh, and BTW as to my last comment where I wrote:
   Few are that gallant now, or make such an ostentatious show of gallantry, but some men, including myself, will still give up the window seat if she asks.

   I have taken it so far as to ask FIRST if she wants the window seat, if I am the one doing the plane reservations, and — since we always want to sit together if possible, I make sure she gets it. Again, not because she is my “Mommy” but because my girlfriend is my special and precious sweetheart.

   I don’t think I am so wonderful, I would be surprised if many other guys don’t also do this, as I see this behavior often.

   On the other hand, if a woman doesn’t want to be treated in this way, she shouldn’t be. Some women want to be treated as “one of the guys” but these are not generally the women I am dating. My girlfriend now is a femme, interestingly, and her being dyke-identified doesn’t preclude her wanting to be treated like a princess. In fact, she may be more into that than most of the straight women I’ve dated, although women in general, do seem to take a certain amount of this “gentlemanly” behavior for granted, and to some degree, they expect it. That is, they expect men to sacrifice their own personal comfort, especially if there is a romantic interest — this is courtly behavior and also, romantic. The puddle and the coat again… It pleases me to make her happy.

   I don’t mean to belabor my point Jay, (although I am prone to doing that) but just wanted to clarify and add a bit to my thoughts.
4. Jay 04.19.07 / 6pm

   Hi Nick,

   I guess my question is what do you see at stake in the depiction of men as stupid? I don’t think I’m especially familiar with the arguments connecting feminism and male stupidity that you’re referring to.

   Feminist-bashing men (for lack of a better term) point to these types of ads as a consequence of “male-bashing” that is found in “feminism.”

   I did not mean to suggest that any particular branch of feminism itself depicts men as stupid.

   The investment we as men have in this imagery (and some women, too) is that it continually allows for our infantilization. The whole “oops it’s not my fault” that I can’t clean the house, take care of my kids, act like a responsible adult because hey “I’m just a kid, too, you know!”

   I also want to say that these images of men-as-stupid exist as part of the patriarchal agenda just as images of men-as-intelligent exist as part of the schema. Any depiction of men in media will fall within these parameters. Part of why I wrote SOM is that I wanted men to talk about how to exist outside of this schema, even if only briefly.

   Men-as-stupid jokes matter because the existence of this trope very much serves the demoralization of women, particularly women who partner with men. My wife told me she felt that she was so much more fortunate than other women she knew who dated men because I am mature and well-mannered.

   How much of women’s life energy and self-expression is lost babysitting their own life partners?

   That we teach men to behave in this way and women to behave in response represents grave losses of human imagination.

   In the long run I think this image is just as damaging as imagery that glorifies male violence or male-power-over anyone. Whether it is through physical demoralization or a kind of spiritual decay which tells women they only merit stupid husbands who think of them as mommy, all of it serves to further an agenda I seek to dismantle.

   Does that make sense?
5. Jay 04.19.07 / 6pm

   Max,

   I think you raise great points about gallantry.

   In this ad,I don’t see the husband giving his wife the window seat. The text reads “your wife is escorted off the plane.”

   Who is escorting the wife off the plane? If it were her husband, why not say, “You escort your wife to her connecting flight,” then mention you get the window seat.

   For me escorting someone off the plane means one thing only ~ they are being removed because they’ve violated some FAA law or are being disruptive.

   Gallantry remains a topic of great interest to me, personally, as well as one hot potato topic in feminist circles. Gentlemanly behavior has been one of the most difficult areas for me to understand and exercise and have only felt capable within the last two or three years.

   As you point out, it is always negotiated with each individual woman on a case-by-case basis. What is most intriguing are feminist women who desire to be treated in a gallant manner at certain times….

   Of course, merely mentioning this fact can mean trouble!
6. Max Wolf Valerio 04.19.07 / 7pm

   What is most intriguing are feminist women who desire to be treated in a gallant manner at certain times….

   Of course, merely mentioning this fact can mean trouble!

   Yes - trouble!!! : 0

   It can be very confusing for all men these days, and not just we transmen, since who-knows-who-wants-what-when. I mean, as far as women go. Not that this should be, necessarily, the determining factor. It all depends, of course, also, on how each man feels about gallantry.

   I nearly automatically treat Amy in a gallant way, at least, a lot of the time, if not every single second. It appears to be what she expects, even though she has never been with a man before really. And, yes, it is quite intriguing when feminist women appear to expect or enjoy gallant behavior from men — and, they often do. (not always certainly, but more often than I would have thought).

   All intriguing stuff!!!!!! : )

   Butch-femme has a lot of old-fashioned gallant behavior and sex-typed roles going on. In some ways, I missed out on the butch-femme renaissance having transitioned too long ago, I am amazed at how “old fashioned” it can be. Amy has told me about femmes passing money across the table secretly to butches to pay for a meal, since the butch may not be able to afford to pay for BOTH people but wants to play that old-fashioned role. I was astonished! Even straight women I’ve dated are not that role-typed.

   I don’t date super conservative straight women, but still.

   I kind of enjoy the way Amy is though I admit… There is something sexy to me about this type of role playing and the gallantry that accompanies it as long as it is within rational bounds and seen as playful instead of dead-serious all the time. Then again, I am not sure how I view it always, or how she is viewing it. One is IN it, and not observing at all times.

   Anyway, thanks for the opportunity to open that can of gallant worms.
7. Max Wolf Valerio 04.19.07 / 8pm

   Yea, I do think the ad is more of a joke about the wife. That the wife is escorted off the plane for being “bad” and so, the husband doesn’t have to be gallant and give her the window seat. I still don’t see it as a Mommy thing, but more — “now you don’t have to be so damn nice and give up the wondow seat since she is being taken off the plane”. Maybe, a bit of male resentment for feeling as though we have to give up nice things for the sake of being gallant to women?

   Ok, I thought it was funny. But, silly. Funny - silly. I don’t know why I am never offended by most of the things other people I know are offended by, at least, people in my circle of bloggers, but I generally am not.

   I do agree that women having to be responsible for male bad behavior is counter-productive.

   However, I know in my own experience that my girl has told me that she enjoys cooking for me since I appreciate it so much. With one former partner, who was extra controlling about how the house was handled and did it all RIGHT — cleaning, cooking, shopping, she felt as though she had no role, nothing to contribute. With me, who is basically mostly clueless about cooking and hates to shop for groceries, (though I can) — she feels needed and appreciated. And, I do appreciate it - people who can cook are magic!

   So, these things, can be complex - and some women, apparently, can sometimes enjoy doing certain domestic things for some men –

   Strange but true…
8. Nick Clarkson 04.20.07 / 6pm

   Thanks, Jay. I see what you’re saying about the connections between allowing men to get away with being helpless in certain areas, draining women’s energy from more valuable pursuits.

   I guess I end up feeling totally disconnected from so much of the stuff about masculinity so many other FTMs talk about since I’ve transitioned to being a fag. Or am a young single fag. Or because I live comfortably in the make-believe world of Gender Studies. I don’t know.

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